tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post6902693375702844104..comments2024-03-28T17:08:15.784-07:00Comments on Social Democracy for the 21st Century: A Realist Alternative to the Modern Left: Blaming Capitalism for Virtually Everything Wrong with the WorldLord Keyneshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06556863604205200159noreply@blogger.comBlogger22125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post-68330686862051354882015-11-16T04:52:03.294-08:002015-11-16T04:52:03.294-08:00There is a fundamental conflict between environmen...There is a fundamental conflict between environmental protection and economic growth because of the drawing of resources from the natural economy into the human economy at a rate that is much faster than the natural economy can replenish stocks. <br /><br />Where there is a abject poverty in a full world then income distribution becomes a much more important agenda item because of the consequences of economic growth for the environment. SpiritSkillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12225172385830110611noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post-67323656015313433442015-11-14T08:29:04.508-08:002015-11-14T08:29:04.508-08:00Your obsession with the monetary system is a red h...Your obsession with the monetary system is a red herring. To the extent that capitalism tends to increase goods by means of greater economic activity, under given technology, it increases pollution and greenhouse gases. <br /><br />However, to the extent that communism tends to increase goods by means of greater economic activity, under given technology, it increases pollution and greenhouse gases. <br />Lord Keyneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06556863604205200159noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post-34468993240312900542015-11-14T08:18:26.766-08:002015-11-14T08:18:26.766-08:00My explanation, distilled to one line, is: "G...My explanation, distilled to one line, is: "Global Warming is a result of exponential economic growth, which is built into the monetary system."<br /><br />You say that explanation is badly flawed, but you don't state why - you just say that other economic systems also sought endless economic growth (but we're talking about capitalism, so that's whataboutery).<br /><br />Did they have endless economic growth directly built into the monetary system though? From what I can see, they didn't.<br /><br />I'm not interested in defending Communism though, I am more interested in pointing out how the current form of capitalism, has global warming actually built-in to the monetary system - do you disagree that it is built-in, to the monetary system?<br /><br /><br />Worth checking out Steady-State-Economics/Herman-Daly. I'm more of an MMT'er myself, but it's very interesting.<br />https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steady-state_economyJohnBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04111028073811348708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post-20541635870110752522015-11-13T09:39:59.890-08:002015-11-13T09:39:59.890-08:00I feel like we're trapped in a false dichotomy...I feel like we're trapped in a false dichotomy here, between USSR-style central planning and capitalism. For me, socialism means worker ownership, but you can drop the all the -isms and just ask: would democratically owned workplaces, which directed their production using political channels, avoid some of the problems we face today? I say yes, maybe you say no, but this is the issue we need to be debating.Unlearningeconhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13687413107325575532noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post-47784039431747196822015-11-12T17:11:40.669-08:002015-11-12T17:11:40.669-08:00And look at the apologetics you get for them infra...And look at the apologetics you get for them infra. "it's complicated."<br />Ken Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08207803092348071005noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post-18036491957270608442015-11-12T13:46:16.044-08:002015-11-12T13:46:16.044-08:00In this particular hypothetical, such assumptions ...In this particular hypothetical, such assumptions are not necessary, no.<br /><br />--Will F.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post-85579241085525480892015-11-12T13:32:09.212-08:002015-11-12T13:32:09.212-08:00So is there no population growth is this imaginary...So is there no population growth is this imaginary communist world? No developing world?Lord Keyneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06556863604205200159noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post-50011267408525273762015-11-12T13:28:13.825-08:002015-11-12T13:28:13.825-08:00May I ask why?
If global production is already m...May I ask why? <br /><br />If global production is already meeting needs, and it is determined that additional production would produce more costs than benefits, it stands to reason that steady (or a focus on developing less wasteful) output is a desirable outcome for a plan to target.<br /><br />I admit that I cannot think of a reason to the contrary. Can you?<br /><br />--Will F.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post-64404817969170654902015-11-12T13:18:26.852-08:002015-11-12T13:18:26.852-08:00So you are saying a viable communist system could ...So you are saying a viable communist system could have 5 year plans that produce no economic growth? This is plainly ridiculous. Lord Keyneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06556863604205200159noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post-31003070148478049002015-11-12T13:16:11.700-08:002015-11-12T13:16:11.700-08:00Well, what do you suppose 5-year plans are? They&...Well, what do you suppose 5-year plans are? They're plans, obviously. They can take a variety of forms depending on the needs of the state, no? Nothing makes it logically necessary that a plan should prioritize one thing over another; rather (as the story goes, again), it is supposed to reflect the particular needs of a nation at a given time, and on there's no reason to suppose otherwise on logical grounds.<br /><br />On the other hand, capitalism is ultimately beholden to the profit motive, which operates more or less independently of the concrete needs of a nation. That's the point I was trying to make.<br /><br />--Will F.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post-27140912345232536652015-11-12T13:05:53.960-08:002015-11-12T13:05:53.960-08:00Marxism does NOT operate on different internal dri...Marxism does NOT operate on different internal drives than capitalism. They both need and want constant and strong economic growth via industrial, agricultural and services growth.<br /><br />Why do you think the Soviet Union had endless 5 year plans? Sheer accident?<br /><br /><br /><br />Lord Keyneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06556863604205200159noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post-56038385127960002242015-11-12T12:58:00.039-08:002015-11-12T12:58:00.039-08:00No one is denying the importance of industrialism ...No one is denying the importance of industrialism to Marxism, but the point that socialism operates on different internal drives than capitalism stands regardless.<br /><br />Also, the Khmer Rouge are a complicated example, considering they were receiving funding from the West and were ultimately defeated by Vietnamese communists. <br /><br />http://www.globalresearch.ca/how-thatcher-helped-pol-pot/5330873<br /><br />--Will F. (no relation to the Will Feret above)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post-19680221196099928682015-11-12T12:53:04.875-08:002015-11-12T12:53:04.875-08:00This explanation is badly flawed. Any system that...This explanation is badly flawed. Any system that wants to lift human beings out of grinding poverty must industrialise: industrial civilisation -- given limits of technology -- tends to produce more pollution and greenhouse gases. That applies equally to communism and capitalism. <br /><br />What is worse, communism was also endlessly obsessed with economic growth and high growth rates. Why do you think they had endless 5 year plans? <br /><br />As I said below, the only exception I can think of is the Khmer Rouge. Look who that insane state turned out.Lord Keyneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06556863604205200159noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post-56586066874523743632015-11-12T12:49:27.630-08:002015-11-12T12:49:27.630-08:00Not nearly as bad as some forms of PC madness thes...Not nearly as bad as some forms of PC madness these days.Lord Keyneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06556863604205200159noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post-90969301213552287442015-11-12T12:48:38.295-08:002015-11-12T12:48:38.295-08:00"what's important is that the question of...<i>"what's important is that the question of whether capitalism is responsible, at present day, for global warming and imperialism is independent of what other systems have done in the past"</i><br /><br />But I've already shown how a counterfactual Communist world – especially the communist Third World – would massively increase greenhouse gases and cause even worse problems with global warming than a capitalist world.<br /><br />At bare minimum, it is seems reasonable that world capitalism today would be causing less greenhouse emissions than a counterfactual communist world.<br />Lord Keyneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06556863604205200159noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post-71013518325749874732015-11-12T12:44:51.722-08:002015-11-12T12:44:51.722-08:00De Leonism just sounds like another utopian fantas...De Leonism just sounds like another utopian fantasy to me. Trade unions have collapsed in the Western world -- and De Leonism's grand plan is to establish socialism by ... trade unions??Lord Keyneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06556863604205200159noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post-43836172917173833562015-11-12T12:43:44.336-08:002015-11-12T12:43:44.336-08:00"The fact is, it's process of industriali...<i>"The fact is, it's process of industrialization itself that pollutes, not this or that economic system."</i><br /><br />And I was driving at that very point. <br /><br /><i>"As the story goes, a socialist state need not mimic the USSR's output-driven model because, contrary to conventional thinking, socialist planning is potentially a very flexible system,;"</i><br /><br />This is absurd. Industrialism is also the core of Marxism, and anyone who denies this is being foolish. <br /><br />The only exception I can think of is the Khmer Rouge. Look who that insane state turned out.<br />Lord Keyneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06556863604205200159noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post-74292048476934960722015-11-12T06:29:52.754-08:002015-11-12T06:29:52.754-08:00The fact is, it's process of industrialization...The fact is, it's process of industrialization itself that pollutes, not this or that economic system. As such, I don't think the argument above is very strong.<br /><br />The point socialists make is that capitalism has no real way moderate that process; the heedless drive to maximize output growth is "baked into" the system globally. Any effort to slow this only endangers the stability of the economy by potentially triggering a crisis via deflationary spiral. In essence, it is argued, capitalism has no way to "ease off the pedal." <br /><br />As the story goes, a socialist state need not mimic the USSR's output-driven model because, contrary to conventional thinking, socialist planning is potentially a very flexible system, since what happens in the economy is the result of conscious decision-making, rather than spontaneous market forces.<br /><br />The discussion on imperialism also misses an important point: imperialism takes different forms under different systems of production. Leftists referring to imperialism are generally talking about the sort that is specific to capitalism. You can read an overview of the development of the theory here: http://monthlyreview.org/2015/07/01/the-new-imperialism-of-globalized-monopoly-finance-capital/<br /><br />The imperialism in question forms the economic basis for international politics, and it's argued to be at the root of the last century of warfare. A nation is not considered to be "imperialist" just because it projects force or pursues its interests (i.e., "has a foreign policy"); the designation has a material, rather than procedural, basis. <br /><br />I hope that helps to clarify the matter.<br /><br />--Will F.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post-73423756210049134872015-11-11T15:24:06.173-08:002015-11-11T15:24:06.173-08:00A while ago I noticed that the far-left online was...A while ago I noticed that the far-left online was drifting away from Marx for a while to rediscover De Leonism (Reds!, a popular alt history plot online, is about a De Leonist society), though it seems to have stopped now. <br /><br />While this was an improvement over them being Marxists is there A) any significant differences between De Leonism and Marxist Leninism in practical terms and B) any more plausable as a way to organize a society than communism or other far-left ideologies? I'm not a De Leonist or on the far-left but I'd be curious to hear your take on it.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17973580598290240182noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post-81318396325427338272015-11-11T12:18:15.877-08:002015-11-11T12:18:15.877-08:00You're largely just comparing 20th century com...You're largely just comparing 20th century communism with capitalism. I could disagree with some of your characterisation of the former but it's not really worth it - what's important is that the question of whether capitalism is responsible, at present day, for global warming and imperialism is independent of what other systems have done in the past. The question of whether there is an alternative which would <i>not</i> create these things is one that is surely worth asking.Unlearningeconhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13687413107325575532noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post-51227611748897359092015-11-11T06:51:18.907-08:002015-11-11T06:51:18.907-08:00Maybe off topic, but relevant to your recent train...Maybe off topic, but relevant to your recent train of thought I think.<br />http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2015/11/can-we-take-political-correctness-seriously-now.html#Ken Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08207803092348071005noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post-60474620698343563212015-11-11T06:41:36.345-08:002015-11-11T06:41:36.345-08:00The link between capitalism and global warming, is...The link between capitalism and global warming, is the monetary system being based on banks creating money through debt, and how the interest on that debt makes overall debt grow far out of proportion to the amount of money in the economy, with the primary way of dealing with that (before the disproportionate increase in debt inevitably leads to the end of an economic cycle), being inflation through exponentially increasing economic growth (and as soon as that growth stops, it all comes crashing down).<br /><br />This need for exponential economic growth, then feeds pretty directly into global warming. So it's directly built-in to the actual monetary system.JohnBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04111028073811348708noreply@blogger.com