tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post5571609852198386312..comments2024-03-17T00:23:24.896-07:00Comments on Social Democracy for the 21st Century: A Realist Alternative to the Modern Left: The Stupidity of Libertarian Privatised RoadsLord Keyneshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06556863604205200159noreply@blogger.comBlogger24125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post-32082334117231090392016-04-22T07:51:58.596-07:002016-04-22T07:51:58.596-07:00"The issue is: we need a general system of ro..."The issue is: we need a general system of roads planned by the state and all these roads when they are useful to the public and private business should be public goods."<br /><br />Public goods does not mean publicly owned. Maybe roads should be publicly owned, but that's not what "public goods" means. Ken Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12976919713907046171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post-60974803650373248962016-04-20T19:58:46.220-07:002016-04-20T19:58:46.220-07:00What are your thoughts on high speed trains? Carbo...What are your thoughts on high speed trains? Carbon emissions? Drunk driving? Traffic jams? Pot holes? Repaving roads that aren't damaged or worn? Empty super-highways? P Szarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09298180391605451618noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post-39208391293180216992016-04-19T11:45:08.189-07:002016-04-19T11:45:08.189-07:00@tom
I think paying more for better service goes b...@tom<br />I think paying more for better service goes back a long way. And it helps everyone by amortizing the cost of exploring the options over those able and willing to pay.<br />This is why LK's point about the "waste" of railroads is misdirected. You won't get everything right the first time, and you don't always have the knowledge before hand. Ken Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12976919713907046171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post-67578188262114898442016-04-19T11:41:51.568-07:002016-04-19T11:41:51.568-07:00Right. That's a good case for "private ro...Right. That's a good case for "private roads". The capacity is increased and the increase is paid for by those who use that extra capacity. This provide a (smaller) benefit also for those not using the extra capacity in the form of (some) less congestion. It's like paying for a private room in a hospital. Fine if private rooms are built for the purpose but iffy if wards are demolished to be converted. <br />You'd think a social democrat would be for such things!Ken Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12976919713907046171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post-31563802772183933342016-04-19T11:40:03.734-07:002016-04-19T11:40:03.734-07:00As for this 407, if it was some road built purely ...As for this 407, if it was some road built purely for some rich people that nobody else wants to use, they should have paid for it privately and not had any public funds.Lord Keyneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06556863604205200159noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post-35651057560717177182016-04-19T11:38:08.456-07:002016-04-19T11:38:08.456-07:00"Your is that there is no legitimate case for...<i>"Your is that there is no legitimate case for private road building in the first place."</i><br /><br />No, no, Ken B. We're talking past one another.<br /><br />I don't care if people build private roads on their own private property. Or if companies or private entities build roads for pure commercial use (say, in out of the way places) by themselves or their employees that nobody else wants or has any use for. <br /><br />The issue is: we need a general system of roads planned by the state and all these roads when they are useful to the public and private business should be public goods.<br />Lord Keyneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06556863604205200159noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post-52663706259167806742016-04-19T11:33:33.336-07:002016-04-19T11:33:33.336-07:00Depends on what it's about. If it's to arg...Depends on what it's about. If it's to argue over some Marxist/libertarian/Postmodernist issue dear to your heart or abuse me, I no longer find these types of debates productive.<br /><br />Maybe leave a comment (which I will not publish) and tell me what it is about with your email.<br /><br />cheers.Lord Keyneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06556863604205200159noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post-38081893429581696292016-04-19T11:22:14.886-07:002016-04-19T11:22:14.886-07:00Lk spoke about if i understand it well against a s...Lk spoke about if i understand it well against a situation where all the roads privatised and built exclusively by private companies.<br /><br />Not against a case where private companies build side by side provate roads.<br /><br />For example in my country private company built a parallel private road to public roads which the government helped to the private company to plan it well by a b.o.t (buy own transfer so basically they will own it for 30 years and will return it to to the people as public road).<br /><br />Anyway the government also imposed price controls on the toll charged.<br /><br />So the situation is fine but the problem begins when all the roads totally privatised without any normal central planing and regulations.<br /><br />(and even if there is a situation like that i still prefer public roads there is things that government better with).disequilibriumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09760922141392402211noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post-18320677426988672722016-04-19T11:18:39.877-07:002016-04-19T11:18:39.877-07:00LK I would like to contact you personally about so...LK I would like to contact you personally about something. Is there an email where I may reach you?Crossoverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18104929127001564162noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post-75052670534397029912016-04-19T11:07:19.751-07:002016-04-19T11:07:19.751-07:00Also, road building on the frontier is one thing. ...Also, road building on the frontier is one thing. In modern society there are serious transaction costs and free rider problems. It's a collective action problem to build a subway or a highway. You need eminent domain sometimes etc.Ken Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12976919713907046171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post-88163949364755632292016-04-19T11:01:26.175-07:002016-04-19T11:01:26.175-07:00You have the facts wrong on 407. It was NOT public...You have the facts wrong on 407. It was NOT publicly owned prior to 1999. It was JOINTLY owned because it was jointly paid for. The government (wisely or foolishly) sold its interest. But the jointly held 407 company already had the rights to tolls.<br />But lets assume the sell off was a bad idea (probably right). That supports MY position not yours. MY position is that there is no legitimate case for selling existing roads. Your is that there is no legitimate case for private road building in the first place. That the 407 is a boon is clear refutation of your position. That is less of a boon that it might be is vindication of mine.<br /><br />Drive the 407. Look at the cars. Tell me it's the poor driving. I'd like to believe the poor drive Lexuses!Ken Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12976919713907046171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post-5904896141950413302016-04-19T10:54:41.915-07:002016-04-19T10:54:41.915-07:00I was unclear . You DO pay at the point of service...I was unclear . You DO pay at the point of service because that is when you incur the cost, by burning gasoline. It matter not that you fork over for the gas at a differnt time. Consider the 407. You consume the mileage charge (like the gas) at the point of service but pay later (monthly bill). The separate point of forking over does not mean you aren't incurring the cost as you sue the road (like gas).Ken Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12976919713907046171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post-86015988362093758442016-04-19T10:42:24.295-07:002016-04-19T10:42:24.295-07:00@ken B - Although economically that sounds like a ...@ken B - Although economically that sounds like a sound proposition, isnt this a solution of our inequality era? How do the roads perform as compared to each other? I am interested to know more about this project.Tomhttp://www.dfsdf.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post-21444068019172892292016-04-19T09:55:35.847-07:002016-04-19T09:55:35.847-07:00"It is important not to confuse private owner...<i>"It is important not to confuse private ownership and a market. etc. ... But there is usually no competitive market for roads."</i><br /><br />Analysis correct.<br /><br />But even highways are unlikely to have competitive markets.Lord Keyneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06556863604205200159noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post-4619679560577627462016-04-19T09:52:42.589-07:002016-04-19T09:52:42.589-07:00"Btw ken b are you right wing post keynesian?...<i>"Btw ken b are you right wing post keynesian?"</i><br /><br />No, no, Daniel, Ken B is a centrist with libertarian leanings. <br /><br />He's not a Post Keynesian or even left wing.Lord Keyneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06556863604205200159noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post-49993021634371926672016-04-19T09:50:34.557-07:002016-04-19T09:50:34.557-07:00(1) “You are wrong since gas is consumed at the po...(1) <i>“You are wrong since gas is consumed at the point of delivery so that is when the cost is incurred.”</i><br /><br />What are you even talking about, Ken B? Your original comment was that roads need to paid for by taxes, e.g., on petrol. Correct. <br /><br />Nobody is disputing that gas is consumed and paid for at the point of delivery.<br /><br />(2) <i> “Consider the 407 in Toronto. It has an electronic toll. Charges are incurred "at the point of delivery" but billed for later payment, usually a charge at the end of a billing period. So physically paid at some other time, incurred at point of delivery. Your claim is just factually wrong.”</i> <br /><br />I never said we could not have a road whose use we pay for at the point of delivery. Why these pathetic straw man arguments, Ken B?<br /><br />(3) As for the 407 in Toronto:<br /><i>“When Mike Harris was elected Premier in 1995 on his platform of the Common Sense Revolution, the Ontario government faced a $11 billion annual deficit and a $100 billion debt. <b>Seeking to balance the books, a number of publicly owned services were privatized over the following years.</b> Although initially spared, Highway 407 was sold quickly in the year leading up to the 1999 provincial elections. The highway was leased to a conglomerate of private companies for $3.1 billion. The route was subsequently renamed the 407 ETR.[10] The Ontario corporation, known as 407 International Inc., is jointly owned by the Spanish multinational Cintra Infraestructuras (43.23%), as well as various subsidiaries of the Canada Pension Plan Investment Board (40%) and the Montreal-based engineering firm SNC-Lavalin (16.77%).[32] The deal included a 99-year lease agreement with unlimited control over the highway and its tolls, dependent on traffic volume; however, the government maintains the right to build a transport system within the highway right-of-way”</i><br />https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontario_Highway_407#History<br /><br />lol… so in other words, this was just another in a long line of disgusting privatisations of public property for a quick buck, just because some federal government was too stupid to provide financial resources for its state/provincial governments. Another example of handing over public property to rentiers who take unearned income from owning an asset that is being paid for by the public anyway.<br /><br />(4) <i> “Nor is the toll on the 407 regressive. It is paid by the affluent, who use the road, and those who do not want to pay use the 401.”</i><br /><br />Even if true, it does not refute my general argument above. Since the rich or ultra-rich are hardly likely to be only users of privatised roads.<br /><br />Maybe by “affluent” you just mean middle class people, who generally speaking are not the people were would call the rich. Your argument doesn’t cut any ice with me. <br /><br />And what about the sequel:<br /><br /><i> “The Ontario provincial government has quarrelled with 407 ETR over toll rates and customer service, but is largely tied down by the lease contract. On February 2, 2004, the government delivered notice to 407 ETR that they are considered to be in default of their contract because of 407 ETR's decision to raise toll rates without first obtaining provincial clearance etc.”</i><br />https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontario_Highway_407#HistoryLord Keyneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06556863604205200159noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post-81790610186194578472016-04-19T09:19:57.791-07:002016-04-19T09:19:57.791-07:00The more cogent argument LK is this. It is importa...The more cogent argument LK is this. It is important not to confuse private ownership and a market. Private ownership is not ipso facto more efficient of honest than public. What matters is the the incentives. If there is a functioning competitive market then the market can impose costs and incentives and private ownership will be the best choice. But there is usually no competitive market for roads. Ken Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12976919713907046171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post-42846266547505198492016-04-19T09:09:44.682-07:002016-04-19T09:09:44.682-07:00You two need to look at some facts on the ground. ...You two need to look at some facts on the ground. The 407 is heavily used, and I will bet a great deal that its regular users are *more* affluent than average, making its charges (which are not taxes) progressive. Consider the longer term. When the 407 was proposed one reason advanced for tolls was to make sure that the users of the road *who live in the richest part of Ontario* pay the costs not those in Sudbury. Not a regressive tax at all.<br /><br />Tax incidence is much more complicated than you make out.Ken Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12976919713907046171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post-15851339985058251982016-04-19T09:05:18.638-07:002016-04-19T09:05:18.638-07:00I don't follow Daniel. Lk is right to say prog...I don't follow Daniel. Lk is right to say progressive taxes when he actually said regressive? In that case he's right to say Searle is full of shit! So, what are you actually saying?<br /><br />Post Keyensian? I was born after Keynes died, yes. I identify as post-Darwinian though.Ken Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12976919713907046171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post-55401394502816927972016-04-19T08:06:10.558-07:002016-04-19T08:06:10.558-07:00Lk absoloutly right about that is funded by progre...Lk absoloutly right about that is funded by progressive taxes.<br /><br />Btw ken b are you right wing post keynesian?disequilibriumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09760922141392402211noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post-28269036098277823962016-04-19T07:56:57.872-07:002016-04-19T07:56:57.872-07:001. You are wrong since gas is consumed at the poin...1. You are wrong since gas is consumed at the point of delivery so that is when the cost is incurred.<br />Consider the 407 in Toronto. It has an electronic toll. Charges are incurred "at the point of delivery" but billed for later payment, usually a charge at the end of a billing period. So physically paid at some other time, incurred at point of delivery. Your claim is just factually wrong.<br /><br />Nor is the toll on the 407 regressive. It is paid by the affluent, who use the road, and those who do not want to pay use the 401. You never need to take the 407. ANd its rates reflect congestion charging. <br /><br />The justification for private roads these days, and in the case of the 407 which was a joint project, is to raise funds to get the thing built in the first place, and get good technology (via incentives). None of those reasons seem a compelling argument to sell off an existing road. Ken Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12976919713907046171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post-25047528946934228102016-04-19T07:42:55.925-07:002016-04-19T07:42:55.925-07:00(1) "They aren't free ever and the "...(1) <i>"They aren't free ever and the "point of delivery" is both irrelevant and actually wrong, since gas taxes are ostensibly for this</i><br /><br />Read the phrase carefully, Ken B: "a free public good **<b>at the point of delivery</b>".<br /><br />It's free at the point of delivery, when you use it, NOT free in the sense that it did not require real resources to build. Of course it required real resources and if paid for by the state required $for$ taxes or borrowing. But this is another point about how superior state provision of roads is: it is a positive form of wealth redistribution, when you have an effective progressive tax system.<br /><br />(2) <i>"Further many public roads DO charge at "the point of delivery"."</i><br /><br />Yes, Ken B, I'm perfectly well aware of that, thanks. Doesn't refute my argument. <br /><br />In fact, the privatisation craze is one of the stupid elements of the neoliberal delusions we have endured over the past 35 years.<br /><br />Road tolls on traffic roads are just another regressive tax measure hurting the poor and even middle class and raising business costs. <br /><br />Unnecessary, stupid and precisely the sort of free market theological nonsense Peter Hitchens is talking about above.<br /><br />Congestion charges or pollution taxes are a different issue, since they have different and socially useful aims.<br />Lord Keyneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06556863604205200159noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post-1459314004485880062016-04-19T07:27:22.579-07:002016-04-19T07:27:22.579-07:00Sigh. I agree with the conclusion: we don't wa...Sigh. I agree with the conclusion: we don't want to privatize all roads. But some of your arguments are dreadful. Just one example<br />"By privatising roads, roads are no longer a free public good at the point of delivery"<br />They aren't free ever and the "point of delivery" is both irrelevant and actually wrong, since gas taxes are ostensibly for this and gas is consumed at the "point of delivery". <br />Further many public roads DO charge at "the point of delivery". Topll roads and bridges, congestion charges (Red Ken's greatest achievement).Ken Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12976919713907046171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post-44627353180184727202016-04-19T05:28:34.900-07:002016-04-19T05:28:34.900-07:00It appears to me that there has been virtually no ...It appears to me that there has been virtually no progress in the quality of road surfaces during my lifetime of more than 50 years. I may be wrong. But roads of all kinds, including those with unchanged traffic frequency, seem to deteriorate in unchanged intervals. <br /><br />If my observation is correct, could it be that there is not enough competition in that area? <br /><br />Could there be an element of crony capitalism involved? But then, is it conceivable that even certain elements of mutual (crony?) accommodation between the government and the private sector may be inevitable and part of the best package, part of the (all in all) lower costs of not privatising road making compared to a more libertarian solution?<br /><br />At any rate, in view of the fact that road making is such a ubiquitous phenomenon, involving citizens on innumerable levels (private, communal, municipal, regional, national), I suspect, it is the very freedom under which the involved live that makes the system tilt away from libertarian illusions toward the more reasonable practices that we generally observe. In short: free people choose state involvement in the building of roads. <br /><br />Georg Thomas Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com