tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post1084778211102691532..comments2024-03-28T17:08:15.784-07:00Comments on Social Democracy for the 21st Century: A Realist Alternative to the Modern Left: Rescuing Menger from the AustriansLord Keyneshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06556863604205200159noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post-80856887606796979402012-10-26T22:51:58.654-07:002012-10-26T22:51:58.654-07:00LOL ... you're unable to understand irony and ...LOL ... you're unable to understand irony and humour, so it would seem.Lord Keyneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06556863604205200159noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post-62769674775097603162012-10-26T14:44:20.637-07:002012-10-26T14:44:20.637-07:00That's a distortion. Support for a socialist p...That's a distortion. Support for a socialist policy is not the same as socialist in general.<br /><br />Nor is the acceptance or even support of the state of certain Austrians particularly relevant. Menger was an imperfect human being, as the rest of us are.Matt Tanoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02947545760259213385noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post-39512976853321908062012-10-26T14:40:04.230-07:002012-10-26T14:40:04.230-07:00It would only change their view if they thought Me...It would only change their view if they thought Menger was God, and could never be wrong. This sort of thing is like quoting Newton to disprove Einsteinian general relativity or quoting Einstein's opinon on quantum mechanics to refute the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle. It fundamentally assumes that scientific analysis cannot advance and come to more correct conclusions (which are demonstrated logically as being such).<br /><br />It would be the same to quote some of Mises' classical liberal arguments as to why government is necessary for the production of property defense and certain aspects of social order.Matt Tanoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02947545760259213385noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post-43440920323722330182012-09-06T21:29:44.323-07:002012-09-06T21:29:44.323-07:00I agree.
Here’s a quote from the Road to Serfdom ...I agree.<br /><br />Here’s a quote from the Road to Serfdom – “To create conditions in which competition will be as effective as possible, to supplement it where it cannot be made effective, to provide the services which, in the words of Adam Smith, “though they may be in the highest degree advantageous to a great society, are, however, of such a nature, that the profit could never repay the expense to any individual or small number of individuals” – these tasks provide, indeed, a wide and unquestioned field for state activity.”<br /><br />Here’s Karl Popper – “[a] free market is paradoxical. If the state does not interfere, then other semi-political organisations, such as monopolies, trusts, unions, etc. may interfere, reducing the freedom of the market to a fiction.”Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post-60882332555847485922012-09-02T01:35:13.928-07:002012-09-02T01:35:13.928-07:00Oh my goodness, yes:
"I will say that such po...Oh my goodness, yes:<br /><i>"I will say that such policies are certainly socialist. So, if Menger did indeed make such statements, then he certainly was recommending socialist policies in such an instance."</i><br /><br />It must come as quite a surprise for many modern Austrians that their founder was a dreaded **socialist**.<br /><br />Nice response too.Lord Keyneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06556863604205200159noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post-35715796312371913612012-09-02T01:00:46.479-07:002012-09-02T01:00:46.479-07:00Hey LK ,
I'm sure you'll enjoy this... I...Hey LK , <br /><br />I'm sure you'll enjoy this... I got an Austrian to claim that Menger was a socialist here: <br /><br />http://factsandotherstubbornthings.blogspot.com/2012/09/democracy-markets-and-classical.html?m=0<br /><br />In short though, his criticism of the lectures to Rudolf is completely ridiculous, given that Menger revised and corrected errors himself before publishing. Here is my post on it : <br /><br />http://radicalsubjectivist.wordpress.com/2012/09/01/carl-menger-founder-of-the-austrian-school-a-socialist/<br />Isaac Izzy Marmolejohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11954588809878738480noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post-12689688081889903752012-08-29T19:17:32.127-07:002012-08-29T19:17:32.127-07:00Just as an interesting aside, I believe that Carl ...Just as an interesting aside, I believe that Carl Menger's brother was Anton Menger, a law professor and socialist. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post-16872376542707131222012-08-28T15:15:03.211-07:002012-08-28T15:15:03.211-07:00To some extent this should change their opinions....To some extent this should change their opinions. For one, we can conclude that Mengerian vision of spontaneous order plays an important, but limited role (spontaneous order is not absolute). An caps look at Mengerian spontaneous order without looking at the other side of the coin <br /><br />The ignorance is best shown when describing what people imply of Mengerian theory of money. For example, the recent article by <i>The Economist</i> states that Menger's theory provides no role for government, David Glasner essentially agrees. Basically they see Menger's theory of one of pure spontaneous order (as do most people), but this is not what Menger''a theory implies at all. And for the Mises Institute to basically describe the origins of money as one of pure spontaneous order, appealing to Menger as the source, is indeed distorting Menger and his ideas Isaac Izzy Marmolejohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11954588809878738480noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post-12658633021497870662012-08-28T14:50:37.721-07:002012-08-28T14:50:37.721-07:00Oops... I meant progressive tax, not progressive i...Oops... I meant progressive tax, not progressive income Isaac Izzy Marmolejohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11954588809878738480noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post-703877903609380352012-08-28T11:50:25.755-07:002012-08-28T11:50:25.755-07:00Catchy title. Also note Menger's views on prog...Catchy title. Also note Menger's views on progressive income (down below). It is known that Von Wieser justified the progression tax in a similar way in his book <i>Social Economics</i>. Thus perfectly consistent on what you say that the view of the social liberals of Austrian Econ are basically a development of Menger's existing views. I'm actually trying to find some debates between Wieser and Menger (if there are any) or related info on classical vs social liberalism. Wieser is known to say that "chaos (classical liberalism) has to be replaced by a system of order." But I wonder how Menger would have responded... Clearly Menger didn't view his system of lacking order, and his system had a key active role for the State. <br /><br />"If one says that only those people who can pay the money can send their children to school, it is diametrically opposed to the essence of the state. There are many people in the country who cannot pay this tax. With increase in income, one feels less sacrifice, even if the loss is the same amount. For this reason, we must not tax with the same proportion; but with increase in income, the percent rate must be also increased. This means that the percent rate must be progressive as in income tax, and there must be a tobacco tax whose price increases progressively. " - Carl Menger (translated by Takeshi Mizobata in "Transcript of Finanz-Wissenschaft von Prof. Carl Menger") <br />Isaac Izzy Marmolejohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11954588809878738480noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post-52878907220607054052012-08-28T09:55:42.346-07:002012-08-28T09:55:42.346-07:00The specific political positions held by Smith, Me...The specific political positions held by Smith, Menger, Mises, Hayek, Lachmann and etc do not matter, what matters is their analytical framework and what we can deduce from it. The same is true of Marx, Keynes, Minsky, and just about any other economist. <br /><br />I do not agree with the positions held by anarcho-capitalists, and i generally dislike the people who can't seem to tell "Austrian Econ" apart from "Rothbardian Libertarianism" and treat them like one and the same, but Menger's opinions don't really change a thing about their arguments.<br /><br />I'd bet the majority of "Austrians" doing work in academia, even if mostly being free-market minded economists, are much more moderate people than the an-caps at the Mises Institute. It's silly to take those guys as being the "standard Austrian" and think the school as a whole is distorting Menger.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com