tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post7351864084242091586..comments2024-03-17T00:23:24.896-07:00Comments on Social Democracy for the 21st Century: A Realist Alternative to the Modern Left: Two Instances where Marx’s Theory of Value in Volume 3 Intrudes into Volume 1 of CapitalLord Keyneshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06556863604205200159noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post-17336470660901585262015-08-10T23:07:58.683-07:002015-08-10T23:07:58.683-07:00If values and prices do not equate in concrete exc...If values and prices do not equate in concrete exchange, or rarely do, then the capitalist 'laws of motion' Marx outlines in Volume I--the production of surplus value, commodity fetishism, the process of capital accumulation, etc.--don't really follow, because they rely on a deterministic interaction between labor values and prices. <br /><br />These laws of motion would look quite different or would at least need to be explained differently if one adopts at the outset the perspective that value can and does vary from exchange-value.<br /><br />But Marx never goes back and reinterprets, restructures or re-explains the concepts of Volume I from from that perspective. Instead he uses them as the basis for his theoretical arguments in Volume III. The result is not so much dialectical contradiction as it is theoretical incoherence: a set of theoretical concepts based off of another set of theoretical concepts with conflicting assumptions.<br /><br />Could you exegetically contort it back into coherence? Maybe, if you stretch. Would it just be better to overlook what Marx doesn't get quite right and use certain good insights he made anyway as tools to come up with a better theory of capitalism's 'laws of motion'? Absolutely.LachMinskyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16329474355097347528noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post-31648099064930019942015-08-09T19:57:38.812-07:002015-08-09T19:57:38.812-07:00The paper I linked was not an empirical study, nor...The paper I linked was not an empirical study, nor was it advertised as such. I even said as much in a comment above, though I see now that it was never published. <br /><br />(LK, it's really hard to hold coherent conversations when you're just straight-up nixing roughly 1/3 of the comments I post, these days. Could we devise some sort of objective criterion for this, so I can avoid whatever behavior is upsetting you? Thanks in advance.)<br /><br />Anyway, anon, the point of that paper, and virtually all of my conversations with LK so far, is this: There is a great deal of dispute on the question of internal consistency in this particular school. Internal consistency is fully situated in the realm of theory, and the attached debates serve to determine which variants of the theory are even suitable for testing, since a theory with internal inconsistencies is excluded a priori from the possibility of being correct.<br /><br />Sorry if there was any confusion on that point. <br /><br />If you're looking for a specifically empirical study, you can't do much better than Kliman's "The Failure of Capitalist Production," which uses US BEA data to illustrate Marx's central theses -- crucially, the secular fall in the average rate of profit -- and explains how these factors can explain the 07 crisis. I can suggest important work by other Marxists as well, such as Roberts, Carchedi, or Cope, but it's probably best to start with the book I mentioned.<br /><br />Anything else I can help you with?Hedlundnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post-50492760435319731592015-08-09T13:09:43.119-07:002015-08-09T13:09:43.119-07:00The paper you linked contains no real world data. ...The paper you linked contains no real world data. In Table 3, there is merely a hypothetical example involving "Good A" and "Good B" with hypothetical unit prices and outputs. This is not how theories are tested and confirmed in a scientific discipline.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post-85427179178532611122015-08-09T10:22:30.606-07:002015-08-09T10:22:30.606-07:00(1) "It's only a contradiction if you vie...(1) <i>"It's only a contradiction if you view price/value equality in concrete exchange as a tenet of the theory and not as a simplifying assumption."</i><br /><br />And we've seen you have no convincing evidence that Marx ever said in vol. 1 that his idea that individual commodities tend to exchange at pure labour values is just a "simplifying assumption".<br /><br />Marx:<br /><br /><i>“It is true, commodities may be sold at prices deviating from their values, <b>but these deviations are to be considered as infractions of the laws of the exchange of commodities, which, in its normal state is an exchange of equivalents</b>, consequently, no method for increasing value.”</i> (Marx 1906: 176–177).<br /><br />All the evidence shows that Marx meant what he said, and there is a mountain of evidence that his theory of vol. 1 is indeed this.<br /><br />(2) <i>"The aggregate equality of price and value also makes this possible."</i><br /><br />It does no such thing.<br /><br />(3) bloody nonsense.<br /><br />(4) as the Anonymous said, you post some absurd table that has no actual empirical evidence in support of your theory. <br /><br />Also, I love how the table says "mechanisation itself can reduce profit rate" -- as if this is some major characteristic of capitalism and empirically "supports" for Marx's theory. <br /><br />Rather, the empirical evidence shows that automation/ mechanisation increases profits. Epic fail.Lord Keyneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06556863604205200159noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post-48437867212511288582015-08-09T09:45:54.332-07:002015-08-09T09:45:54.332-07:00I've provided, by this point, dozens of schola...I've provided, by this point, dozens of scholarly documents both clarifying and testing Marx's theories -- books and articles alike. Countless thousands of words have been written on this over the last 2-3 decades.<br /><br />The graphic I linked -- to spur discussion, rather than to merely declare victory, as some around these parts tend to do -- is "Table 2" from A. Kliman's <a href="https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CB8QFjAAahUKEwjNhLrIuJzHAhUKGT4KHR5qCxg&url=http%3A%2F%2Fakliman.squarespace.com%2Fwritings%2FValue%2520in%2520Process%2520web.doc&ei=ooLHVc2rCIqy-AGe1K3AAQ&usg=AFQjCNG7qz18jYAT5RY8XcTWQQH0A-Jseg&sig2=SHefuqq6MB-G4vpPV2FQ2w&bvm=bv.99804247,d.cWw" rel="nofollow">“Value in Process: On the Temporality and Internal Consistency of Marx’s Capital"</a> (2001). For a more elaborate discussion of the topic, his 2007 book is still hard to top as a single-volume treatment.<br /><br />You're new to the discussion, so I'll let the "hack" and "faux" business slide, since I'm sure it may indeed have seemed that way. But in the future, if something is unclear or insufficiently informative, please take a moment to ask before you jump right to smearing.<br /><br />Thanks!Hedlundnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post-25684071610998840372015-08-08T23:55:51.705-07:002015-08-08T23:55:51.705-07:00I actually clicked on your link in the hope of fin...I actually clicked on your link in the hope of finding data that might confirm Marx's theory and found a table with no data whatsoever - just words and tick mark in boxes that some Marxist hack would like the reader to believe is "evidence". <br /><br />If you'd actually worked in experimental science, rather that merely referring to Newtonian physics with faux familiarity, you'd know that evidence in support of a theory means observations from the real world, which in the case of Economics means actual figures from a particular industry or firm. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post-75473361445132648272015-08-08T11:48:22.612-07:002015-08-08T11:48:22.612-07:00it is astonishing something so important is relega...<i>it is astonishing something so important is relegated to a footnote, when it contradicts the theory of value in the first chapters of Capital.</i><br /><br />It's only a contradiction if you view price/value equality in concrete exchange as a tenet of the theory and not as a simplifying assumption. Once again, how you read it matters.<br /><br />If we have two, conflicting readings, then the result is two separate theories that must be tested independently. This is not a controversial statement; it's the most basic scientific due diligence we're obligated to perform.<br /><br /><i>Once we accept the value theory of Marx in volume 3, so much of volume 1 becomes nonsense and worthless, as, for example, the following:</i><br /><br />(1) He never lets go of this idea, but the point you miss is that whereas volume 1 holds value equal to exchange value to simplify, volume 3 permits exchange value to vary from value -- even for precious metals. It makes perfect sense to hold off on considering this, as it can complicate the picture greatly. Sort of like how in Newtonian physics, you don't start off taking wind resistance into account when trying to calculate the trajectory of a projectile; first you work on the normal, basic principles, and then start working complications into it later.<br /><br />(2) The aggregate equality of price and value also makes this possible. You're not up to it in the text yet, but you'll get there.<br /><br />(3) As I stated elsewhere, "normal" here can either refer to "the common outcome of a concrete exchange" or the "basic operations of the law" as discussed in my Newton example in (1). If we're truly taking this study seriously, we should see how each of these interpretations affect our outcome, as I say above.<br /><br />At the risk of giving away the ending (because, really, spoiler alerts on a document over a century old are just silly) <a href="http://i.imgur.com/Icj5nT3.png" rel="nofollow">the interpretation I support performs spectacularly</a>. However, if reinventing the wheel is the goal, then I won't complain.Hedlundnoreply@blogger.com