tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post2071806262001883159..comments2024-03-17T00:23:24.896-07:00Comments on Social Democracy for the 21st Century: A Realist Alternative to the Modern Left: Marx on Mass Immigration and CapitalismLord Keyneshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06556863604205200159noreply@blogger.comBlogger37125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post-57208255551263384212017-07-10T10:43:15.340-07:002017-07-10T10:43:15.340-07:00you’ve gotta stop psychoanalyzing people you disag...you’ve gotta stop psychoanalyzing people you disagree with (“clearly, Marx and Engels were very angry”) and just read their arguments, man. i badly want your blog to be better because i want smart social democrats to argue with (as a communist) and there’s some potential in yours, but it’s marred by these jejune, undergrad-ish comments that simply avoid the actual issues at stake. dictateursanguinairehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18339808382417711101noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post-56668242387259945502016-12-15T13:34:44.420-08:002016-12-15T13:34:44.420-08:00It seems to me everyone's missing the second p...It seems to me everyone's missing the second point in the 1870 letter: "This antagonism is the secret of the impotence of the English working class" isn't so much a reflection on migration as on the antagonism, which exists because of the wider character of the relationship between Britain and Ireland. <br /><br />If we separate the two phenomena - migration and antagonism – the antagonism exists with or without the migration. Marx's solution is Irish independence, not a halt to migration (which we might imagine could be accomplished more easily, though not without opposition). <br /><br />In similar vein is the observation on the US South. Black workers aren't streaming in to compete with white ones, the slave trade ended 60 years earlier: rather the issue is the legacy of the economic and legal subjection of a large segment of the population. <br /><br />And what a year later is the International's response to cross-border strikebreaking? Not to oppose migration itself, but to urge solidarity with the strikers. <br /><br />So the problem isn't movement of workers, it's their division that serves the ruling class. No division, no problem. That's why we used to have a thing called solidarity. <br />Dave Pnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post-54973252899415208332015-11-16T08:33:27.011-08:002015-11-16T08:33:27.011-08:00Yes. Coyne too,and Maher. Some rightist too. Not e...Yes. Coyne too,and Maher. Some rightist too. Not enough of either. Obama was awful today on this. <br />Pipes? Often insightful. I don't read him often so don't know his views in detail. Hes with the ones you name on thiz topic though.Ken Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08207803092348071005noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post-42792289124184178182015-11-16T08:26:12.363-08:002015-11-16T08:26:12.363-08:00Actually, left-wing atheists (of which I am one) d...Actually, left-wing atheists (of which I am one) do call this B.S. all the time. E.g., Sam Harris and Dawkins.Lord Keyneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06556863604205200159noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post-11201665225984381722015-11-16T08:18:09.375-08:002015-11-16T08:18:09.375-08:00Ken B,
Fair enough. On that link, yes, anyone sen...Ken B,<br /><br />Fair enough. On that link, yes, anyone sensible knows there's a bizarre PCness about this issue. Though I have to say, I don't need Pipes to tell me this (I disagree with a lot of his other stuff; maybe you do too, or don't... anyway, it's not really an issue).<br /><br />It's gotten so bad comedians have been making fun of it for some time now:<br /><br />https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N46mIHEGHN0Lord Keyneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06556863604205200159noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post-61257428398677693422015-11-16T06:55:40.496-08:002015-11-16T06:55:40.496-08:00This is on topic, and insightful.http://www.danie...This is on topic, and insightful.http://www.danielpipes.org/15618/islam-violence<br /><br />Side note. This does not mean I endorse everything Pipes ever said. Ken Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08207803092348071005noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post-44056230679869768482015-11-16T05:52:34.540-08:002015-11-16T05:52:34.540-08:00Marx was prone to conspiracy theories. Here's ...Marx was prone to conspiracy theories. Here's one:<br /><br />https://fixingtheeconomists.wordpress.com/2013/07/27/karl-marxs-conspiracy-theories/<br /><br />But the idea that the Irish question played a role in international politics between the US and Britain in the 19th century is by no means a conspiracy theory.TheIllusionisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17642837989235595346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post-18344949206634142352015-11-15T14:25:31.695-08:002015-11-15T14:25:31.695-08:00Well Will, I cited it for the link, not Althouse, ...Well Will, I cited it for the link, not Althouse, who is irrelevant to the point. Did she edit the tape?<br />We will have to disagree about Althouse, but I will insist she had nothing to do with what Sanders said. <br />Sander's answer is pretty bad. This is about climate change? It's exactly an example of the stuff we are discussing. Ken Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08207803092348071005noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post-34662623266292343692015-11-15T10:40:26.947-08:002015-11-15T10:40:26.947-08:00Ann Althouse are you serious? She's a law prof...Ann Althouse are you serious? She's a law professor who thinks she's a military general and is an utter conspiracy nut.<br /><br />However on that post in partcular the only thing Sanders said that was really wrong was that the invasion of Iraq led to the rise of "AL-Queda". But I'm honestly not sure how she can simply guffaw at the idea that the Iraq invasion led to the rise of ISIS. Ba'ath generals are now running the military for ISIS and it's the reason they're so effective. <br /><br />Again climate change being more of a danger in the long-term threat than terrorism (that was the original question) may look silly now because we don't see the immiediate effects of climate change but it's not an indefensable position. That seems like an appeal to emotion as well.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17973580598290240182noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post-44058585978685344322015-11-15T07:50:39.338-08:002015-11-15T07:50:39.338-08:00Political parties only learn from losses. It will ...Political parties only learn from losses. It will take a loss to Wilders or Le Pen or the like. I am beginning to hope it happens. I'd prefer Wilders myself, but Holland might be too small to teach the lesson. Ken Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12976919713907046171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post-44301648883096163092015-11-15T06:53:13.659-08:002015-11-15T06:53:13.659-08:00Bernie Sanders
http://althouse.blogspot.ca/2015/1...Bernie Sanders <br />http://althouse.blogspot.ca/2015/11/its-not-too-hard-to-follow-political.html<br />Making David Cameron look good! Ken Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12976919713907046171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post-84671091198777852212015-11-15T06:50:48.927-08:002015-11-15T06:50:48.927-08:00Indeed. In Europe, these populist right-wing parti...Indeed. In Europe, these populist right-wing parties are soaring in popularity. It is not just over this issue of course, but the (correct) perception that EU is grossly anti-democratic, robs countries of economic sovereignty, and imposes open doors immigration that is more and more hated. <br /><br />Merkel's 800,000 was arguably the last straw. Even the EU-loving Cameron balks at this.<br /><br />Sweden may well be ruled by the Sweden Democrats, Geert Wilders may be prime minister of the Netherlands, and (possibly, though it is less probable) Marine Le Pen may become president of France in the near future. The Danish People's Party is already in coalition government in Denmark and the Swiss just elected a anti-immigration party. But ... we aren't seen nothing yet.<br /><br />The left's unfathomable idiocy and incompetence will be one of the major causes of this, if it happens.Lord Keyneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06556863604205200159noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post-2358766049988388832015-11-15T06:46:11.154-08:002015-11-15T06:46:11.154-08:00Some great comments. I disagree with Will's te...Some great comments. I disagree with Will's term for the ISIS version of Islam though, as trying to tie it to our political spectrum. Fundamentalist perhaps.<br />IMO, truest to the sources though. <br /><br />if anything you are too soft on Merkel. She did after all double down after the situation got out of control.<br /><br />You won,t like it, but the solution involves intervention. ISIS must be destroyed, militarily. I think you and most here are very wrong, Merkel scale wrong, on what intervention should and should not aim for. I will try to write up my thinking and give you a link to my blog. Ken Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12976919713907046171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post-1948216369774022242015-11-15T06:35:38.620-08:002015-11-15T06:35:38.620-08:00OK, yes. That kind of bullshit is sadly ubiquitous...OK, yes. That kind of bullshit is sadly ubiquitous. The refusal of mainstream parties to be even remotely serious about these things is what feeds the rise of le Pen and others on the fringe. And may well elect her. <br />Merkel is another example. Ken Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12976919713907046171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post-14315146012483141012015-11-15T01:24:16.256-08:002015-11-15T01:24:16.256-08:00Yes, Ralph Nader also had a sensible, humane left-...Yes, Ralph Nader also had a sensible, humane left-wing opposition to mass immigration. It seems Sanders is in that tradition. <br />Lord Keyneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06556863604205200159noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post-67839969934273714922015-11-15T01:09:51.408-08:002015-11-15T01:09:51.408-08:00I think the Syrian refugees should have been scree...I think the Syrian refugees should have been screened then accepted because of how extreme that situation was (I'm not so sure about the economic migrants) but the mass immigration before that should have been addressed long ago when people were clearly fed up with it, then it would have just been an exception and not more like the straw that may have broke the camel's back. However the left has become weirdly obsessed with open borders, even though it was once a fringe, utopian libertarian idea.<br /><br />In the US Bernie Sanders came out against open borders for entirely legitimate reasons and the "left" freaked out. Vox called his views "ugly" and on twitter Noah Smith called him a "nativist". <br /><br />It's beyond bizarre because there are already alternative left-wing proposals put forward by the likes of Dean Baker to address poverty in Third-world by exempting Developing nations from IP claims and allowing them to afford generic drugs, computer software, etc. (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dean-baker/bernie-sanders-open-borde_b_7929636.html). Yet the left doesn't seem interested in these proposals that benefit the global poor at the expense of wealthy corporations instead of at the expense of the common worker they are supposed to represent. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17973580598290240182noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post-84915726581616315392015-11-15T00:44:03.150-08:002015-11-15T00:44:03.150-08:00Again, good comment.
But look at how far things ...Again, good comment. <br /><br />But look at how far things have gone already. The popularist right is rising all over Europe, e.g., Sweden Democrats, Danish People's Party, Dutch Party for Freedom (PVV), French National Front, and UKIP. <br /><br />Their rise is a symptom of how useless and stupid the left is. It's not just that the left is neoliberal and supports the anti-democratic EU but it is also because more and more people -- even on the left -- whether rightly or wrongly, don't like mass immigration. <br /><br />Although it might be unpopular to say so (you might vehemently disagree), I am afraid Merkel made a terrible mistake to allow in 800,000 migrants. The evidence suggests (1) most of them aren't from Syria (and even worse, many who claim they are actually have fake passports) and (2) most are them aren't even refugees but are <i>economic migrants</i>. <br /><br />This mistake was a gift to right-wing popularist parties. <br />Lord Keyneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06556863604205200159noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post-64279637486577029722015-11-15T00:23:27.365-08:002015-11-15T00:23:27.365-08:00Yes and unfortunately it gives the far-right a leg...Yes and unfortunately it gives the far-right a leg to stand on. If the mainstream politicians think they are helping Muslims by not addressing Islamism they are dead wrong, because the far-right will beat them over the head with it and if they get into power they will be far more brutal in their treatment of Muslims, and they won't very worried about differentiating between moderates and Islamists either.<br /><br />That's not even getting into the fact that most victims of Islamism/Wahhabism are other Muslims, whether they are being oppressed by a recognized theocracy (Saudi-Arabia, the Taliban) or attacked by terrorists (Al-Qaeda, ISIS). The mainstream left/right have to get it through their skulls that they aren't protecting Muslims by not addressing Islamic fundamentalism and its tenants.<br /><br />I think the best way to frame the debate is to regularly (and accurately) call it the "ultra-conservative" and "furthest right" interpretation of Islam, so liberals understand that what we're talking about here is the Muslim worlds answer to the extreme right and that they are extreme opponents of liberalism/pluralism just as Christian Dominionists are.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17973580598290240182noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post-60934480627500841072015-11-14T23:48:50.053-08:002015-11-14T23:48:50.053-08:00Good comment. The bizarre PC inability of most le...Good comment. The bizarre PC inability of most leaders to discuss Islamism infects both mainstream left and right. Lord Keyneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06556863604205200159noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post-62950753728285559442015-11-14T23:46:53.424-08:002015-11-14T23:46:53.424-08:00Ken B,
I am referring to things he's said the...Ken B,<br /><br />I am referring to things he's said the past. Read <a href="http://blogs.new.spectator.co.uk/2015/11/will-politicians-finally-admit-that-the-paris-attacks-had-something-to-do-with-islam/" rel="nofollow">here</a>, which also describes other conservatives too.<br />Lord Keyneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06556863604205200159noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post-49875024817095478582015-11-14T21:28:17.630-08:002015-11-14T21:28:17.630-08:00Try again. http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/...Try again. http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2015/nov/14/david-cameron-describes-paris-attacks-horrifying-sickening-video<br /><br />He blames ISIL and uses the term evil.<br /><br />I remember a man mocked for talking about evil-doers btw. Ken Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08207803092348071005noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post-33590527231380326132015-11-14T21:18:47.830-08:002015-11-14T21:18:47.830-08:00"...ISIS has nothing to do with the reality o..."...ISIS has nothing to do with the reality of Islam." - John McCain. <br /><br />In fairness that was before the Paris attacks but I think it's still relevent to the conversation. <br /><br />What are we defining as "shifting blame" though? If somebody says "France had it coming because the West is evil and oppressing Muslims, an eye for an eye blah blah blah" then they're obviously crackpots. If somebody says "There's nothing wrong in the Islamic world and Islamism is not relevent to the conversation" then they're still being cowardly and intellectually dishonest.<br /><br />But if somebody says "Maybe if the West had a more non-interventionist policy in the Middle East it would reduce the number of terrorist attacks by making the West less of a target" than, regardless of whether of not you agree with that, it's a much different sentiment.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17973580598290240182noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post-40230157547144426032015-11-14T20:41:29.137-08:002015-11-14T20:41:29.137-08:00David Cameron.David Cameron.Lord Keyneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06556863604205200159noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post-3583691865924023932015-11-14T17:50:16.279-08:002015-11-14T17:50:16.279-08:00Mainstream conservatives? Have some examples? The ...Mainstream conservatives? Have some examples? The Ron Paul crowd of course, but they are not mainstream (thank heavens). Ken Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08207803092348071005noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6245381193993153721.post-12349387020102795122015-11-14T12:30:03.488-08:002015-11-14T12:30:03.488-08:00I'm not sure the EU is a productive sort of na...I'm not sure the EU is a productive sort of national integration in the first place. And that's a position consistent with Marxists and PK's alike:<br /><br />http://www.concertedaction.com/2012/11/06/nicholas-kaldor-on-european-political-union/<br /><br /><i>"Some day the nations of Europe may be ready to merge their national identities and create a new European Union – the United States of Europe. If and when they do, a European Government will take over all the functions which the Federal government now provides in the U.S., or in Canada or Australia. This will involve the creation of a “full economic and monetary union”. But it is a dangerous error to believe that monetary and economic union can precede a political union or that it will act (in the words of the Werner report) “as a leaven for the evolvement of a political union which in the long run it will in any case be unable to do without”. For if the creation of a monetary union and Community control over national budgets generates pressures which lead to a breakdown of the whole system it will prevent the development of a political union, not promote it."</i><br /><br />So it's fully understandable that national populations want out. This is not an indictment of multiculturalism or international unity per se, but rather the particular neoliberal form of it Europe has adopted.<br /><br />As for the vote thing, that's aside from my specific point. I'm 99% sure you yourself would agree that the very existence of involuntary unemployment is a serious indictment of the system we have. And given the thing I was saying above about the labor aristocracy (to say nothing about decades of ideological warfare and propaganda), it stands to reason that there would not be a large portion of the voting public taking the position in imperial core nations. But nations of the imperial periphery have much more active socialist movements. They just swept the elections in Kerala, for instance.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com